I definitely think Canadian English is much closer to English English than American English. I first noticed this when reading Margaret Atwood (long before I moved to Canada), because there were many expressions she used that I thought of as Australianisms but, it turns out, were originally Britishisms* and were in widespread use in Canada as well. When I moved to Vancouver, I had to spend much less time explaining myself than I did in the US. (Although in the US when I lived there, everyone thought Australians were adorably exotic; not so much in Vancouver. Canada is actually where I heard the ‘NAFA’** expression for the first time, where it had travelled by way of the UK).
For example, Canadians are familiar with ‘whingeing’ as a term – at least in Atlantic Canada; Americans aren’t. That said, I heard ‘whining’ used much more commonly in Canada. My sense is that Canadians, much like Kiwis and the English themselves, tend to use the terms interchangeably. (I’ve never heard ‘moaning’ used in the English sense outside the UK.) Wierzbicka’s argument is that only in Australia has it reached the status of a cultural keyword, which seems right to me, given the particular form of nationalism that developed in Australia around ideals of toughness, resilience and fairness (Bruce Kapferer’s work on this is excellent).
Of course, the Kiwis have the ANZACs too as part of their national mythology, but they also have something equally significant to define themselves with, or, rather, against: Australians. Canadians have a similar sort of problem with their more culturally dominant neighbour, which is why ‘being Canadian’ is often defined as much by what it isn’t (being American), as what it is. That’s not to say that it’s not possible to talk about Canadian national identity in positive rather than negative terms (and the British influence on Canadian culture is definitely part of that), but just that it’s harder to articulate, which is why everyone resorts to the ‘polite Canadians’ stereotype (although I will never stop finding that fight scene in ‘Anchorman 2’, where the Canadian news team keep apologising, funny).
Speaking of Fox, I thought her failure to mention Canadians in her discussion of English politeness norms was a significant oversight, given the ways in which Canadians are far more culturally associated with politeness than the English. However, I think there are regional differences in Canada in terms of how politeness is practiced, with an east/west divide in terms of whether politeness is positive or negative (in my experience of living in Vancouver, politeness gets more negative/less 'friendly' the closer to the Pacific you get).
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*Although I claim ‘No worries’ for Australia and will go to my grave insisting that it was ours long before everyone else started using it!
** It means ‘Not another fucking Aussie’, in case you’ve never heard of it.
Thank you for that detailed reply. I had not heard NAFA, so thank you for that as well. I do think Canadians, at least in my own experience and my observations and reflections as an anthropologist, are closer to the English than to Americans (I do not know many Australians!) in our tendency to greater reserve, our “politeness”, and whether as a personal trait or an age-cohort tendency, our privacy orientation. I grew up in Montréal but have lived in parts of Ontario, and now in Toronto, since the 1970’s, with some time in Guyana. Torontonians had long had the reputation of “coldness”, reserve, Britishness. Montrealers in my time did definitely queue for buses, whereas Torontonians seem not to have that as a defined behaviour. We do tend to thank the bus or streetcar driver on disembarking, which Fox seemed to consider odd or worthy of note among the English. The “No Talking to Strangers” pattern seems to be breaking down here, and the pandemic closures led to a further weakening, at least to the extent of friendly acknowledgments, in my neighbourhood at least.
On Vancouver: I visited in August 2019, and was astonished that people walking toward or past me on sidewalks said “Hello, lovely day” or similarly greeted and walked on. I mentioned it to friends who had moved back to Vancouver after 14 years in Toronto, and they too had been surprised by being spoken to so casually by strangers.
More thought and observation needed on this topic of “differences”, or “national characteristics”.
How interesting! I would have said the opposite: that Vancouverites have a reputation for 'cold' politeness more than Torontonians, but, then, I've never lived in Toronto. Certainly, your experience of being randomly greeted on the street is very far outside of my experience of Vancouver - and I lived there for 12 years! Many Australian expats living in Vancouver (all those NAFAs...) used to complain about how difficult it was to break into Vancouver social circles. But, yes, I completely agree that not enough has been written about these sorts of cultural differences, probably because its fallen out of favour amongst anthropologists to speak of them and everyone else does a bit of a shit job! In any case, now you've got me thinking about politeness (as well as, obviously, license plates - I was just talking to my sister about that topic today!), so perhaps I will write a piece on that at some point as well.
(I am a dud at Replying or Commenting on this site without having to make several attempts, hence my duplicated Comment earlier in the day. My log-in is routinely rejected and I must resort to the new link automatically sent to my e-mail account.)
Well, it was in early August that I was in Vancouver, so it is slightly possible that everyone who said “Good morning, lovely day isn’t it?” was a tourist, but I do not believe that, and the returnees to Vancouver from Toronto did say that they too experienced unexpected friendly/courteous approaches on the bus to work or school.
As I have said, it is gratifying for me, so long out of the field, to be able to pique the interest of an anthropologist who currently is in it.
Thank you for that detailed reply. I had not heard NAFA, so thank you for that as well. I do think Canadians, at least in my own experience and my observations and reflections as an anthropologist, are closer to the English than to Americans (I do not know many Australians!) in our tendency to greater reserve, our “politeness”, and whether as a personal trait or an age-cohort tendency, our privacy orientation. I grew up in Montréal but have lived in parts of Ontario, and now in Toronto, since the 1970’s, with some time in Guyana. Torontonians had long had the reputation of “coldness”, reserve, Britishness. Montrealers in my time did definitely queue for buses, whereas Torontonians seem not to have that as a defined behaviour. We do tend to thank the bus or streetcar driver on disembarking, which Fox seemed to consider odd or worthy of note among the English. The “No Talking to Strangers” pattern seems to be breaking down here, and the pandemic closures led to a further weakening, at least to the extent of friendly acknowledgments, in my neighbourhood at least.
On Vancouver: I visited in August 2019, and was astonished that people walking toward or past me on sidewalks said “Hello, lovely day” or similarly greeted and walked on. I mentioned it to friends who had moved back to Vancouver after 14 years in Toronto, and they too had been surprised by being spoken to so casually by strangers.
More thought and observation needed on this topic of “differences”, or “national characteristics”, including perhaps, my experiences in other Canadian provinces and communities, and in Guyana.
In reading about your work and your posts It occurs to me that you have learnt or at least been exposed to 4 different Englishes, as well as the cultures in which they are spoken. Did you find Canadians to have a national-cultural style or characteristic similar to “moaning”, “whining” or “whingeing” or in any other ways?
I had read Kate Fox’s 1st edition and have now read the 2nd, and am somewhat disappointed that she ignores Canadians and Canada altogether! In terms of class markers and in other respects we differ, but in many of her observations we do seem closer to “the English” than to Americans or Australians, so perhaps that is the reason for her emphases (and neglect of Canadians)?
I definitely think Canadian English is much closer to English English than American English. I first noticed this when reading Margaret Atwood (long before I moved to Canada), because there were many expressions she used that I thought of as Australianisms but, it turns out, were originally Britishisms* and were in widespread use in Canada as well. When I moved to Vancouver, I had to spend much less time explaining myself than I did in the US. (Although in the US when I lived there, everyone thought Australians were adorably exotic; not so much in Vancouver. Canada is actually where I heard the ‘NAFA’** expression for the first time, where it had travelled by way of the UK).
For example, Canadians are familiar with ‘whingeing’ as a term – at least in Atlantic Canada; Americans aren’t. That said, I heard ‘whining’ used much more commonly in Canada. My sense is that Canadians, much like Kiwis and the English themselves, tend to use the terms interchangeably. (I’ve never heard ‘moaning’ used in the English sense outside the UK.) Wierzbicka’s argument is that only in Australia has it reached the status of a cultural keyword, which seems right to me, given the particular form of nationalism that developed in Australia around ideals of toughness, resilience and fairness (Bruce Kapferer’s work on this is excellent).
Of course, the Kiwis have the ANZACs too as part of their national mythology, but they also have something equally significant to define themselves with, or, rather, against: Australians. Canadians have a similar sort of problem with their more culturally dominant neighbour, which is why ‘being Canadian’ is often defined as much by what it isn’t (being American), as what it is. That’s not to say that it’s not possible to talk about Canadian national identity in positive rather than negative terms (and the British influence on Canadian culture is definitely part of that), but just that it’s harder to articulate, which is why everyone resorts to the ‘polite Canadians’ stereotype (although I will never stop finding that fight scene in ‘Anchorman 2’, where the Canadian news team keep apologising, funny).
Speaking of Fox, I thought her failure to mention Canadians in her discussion of English politeness norms was a significant oversight, given the ways in which Canadians are far more culturally associated with politeness than the English. However, I think there are regional differences in Canada in terms of how politeness is practiced, with an east/west divide in terms of whether politeness is positive or negative (in my experience of living in Vancouver, politeness gets more negative/less 'friendly' the closer to the Pacific you get).
_____________________
*Although I claim ‘No worries’ for Australia and will go to my grave insisting that it was ours long before everyone else started using it!
** It means ‘Not another fucking Aussie’, in case you’ve never heard of it.
Thank you for that detailed reply. I had not heard NAFA, so thank you for that as well. I do think Canadians, at least in my own experience and my observations and reflections as an anthropologist, are closer to the English than to Americans (I do not know many Australians!) in our tendency to greater reserve, our “politeness”, and whether as a personal trait or an age-cohort tendency, our privacy orientation. I grew up in Montréal but have lived in parts of Ontario, and now in Toronto, since the 1970’s, with some time in Guyana. Torontonians had long had the reputation of “coldness”, reserve, Britishness. Montrealers in my time did definitely queue for buses, whereas Torontonians seem not to have that as a defined behaviour. We do tend to thank the bus or streetcar driver on disembarking, which Fox seemed to consider odd or worthy of note among the English. The “No Talking to Strangers” pattern seems to be breaking down here, and the pandemic closures led to a further weakening, at least to the extent of friendly acknowledgments, in my neighbourhood at least.
On Vancouver: I visited in August 2019, and was astonished that people walking toward or past me on sidewalks said “Hello, lovely day” or similarly greeted and walked on. I mentioned it to friends who had moved back to Vancouver after 14 years in Toronto, and they too had been surprised by being spoken to so casually by strangers.
More thought and observation needed on this topic of “differences”, or “national characteristics”.
How interesting! I would have said the opposite: that Vancouverites have a reputation for 'cold' politeness more than Torontonians, but, then, I've never lived in Toronto. Certainly, your experience of being randomly greeted on the street is very far outside of my experience of Vancouver - and I lived there for 12 years! Many Australian expats living in Vancouver (all those NAFAs...) used to complain about how difficult it was to break into Vancouver social circles. But, yes, I completely agree that not enough has been written about these sorts of cultural differences, probably because its fallen out of favour amongst anthropologists to speak of them and everyone else does a bit of a shit job! In any case, now you've got me thinking about politeness (as well as, obviously, license plates - I was just talking to my sister about that topic today!), so perhaps I will write a piece on that at some point as well.
(I am a dud at Replying or Commenting on this site without having to make several attempts, hence my duplicated Comment earlier in the day. My log-in is routinely rejected and I must resort to the new link automatically sent to my e-mail account.)
Well, it was in early August that I was in Vancouver, so it is slightly possible that everyone who said “Good morning, lovely day isn’t it?” was a tourist, but I do not believe that, and the returnees to Vancouver from Toronto did say that they too experienced unexpected friendly/courteous approaches on the bus to work or school.
As I have said, it is gratifying for me, so long out of the field, to be able to pique the interest of an anthropologist who currently is in it.
Thank you for that detailed reply. I had not heard NAFA, so thank you for that as well. I do think Canadians, at least in my own experience and my observations and reflections as an anthropologist, are closer to the English than to Americans (I do not know many Australians!) in our tendency to greater reserve, our “politeness”, and whether as a personal trait or an age-cohort tendency, our privacy orientation. I grew up in Montréal but have lived in parts of Ontario, and now in Toronto, since the 1970’s, with some time in Guyana. Torontonians had long had the reputation of “coldness”, reserve, Britishness. Montrealers in my time did definitely queue for buses, whereas Torontonians seem not to have that as a defined behaviour. We do tend to thank the bus or streetcar driver on disembarking, which Fox seemed to consider odd or worthy of note among the English. The “No Talking to Strangers” pattern seems to be breaking down here, and the pandemic closures led to a further weakening, at least to the extent of friendly acknowledgments, in my neighbourhood at least.
On Vancouver: I visited in August 2019, and was astonished that people walking toward or past me on sidewalks said “Hello, lovely day” or similarly greeted and walked on. I mentioned it to friends who had moved back to Vancouver after 14 years in Toronto, and they too had been surprised by being spoken to so casually by strangers.
More thought and observation needed on this topic of “differences”, or “national characteristics”, including perhaps, my experiences in other Canadian provinces and communities, and in Guyana.
In reading about your work and your posts It occurs to me that you have learnt or at least been exposed to 4 different Englishes, as well as the cultures in which they are spoken. Did you find Canadians to have a national-cultural style or characteristic similar to “moaning”, “whining” or “whingeing” or in any other ways?
I had read Kate Fox’s 1st edition and have now read the 2nd, and am somewhat disappointed that she ignores Canadians and Canada altogether! In terms of class markers and in other respects we differ, but in many of her observations we do seem closer to “the English” than to Americans or Australians, so perhaps that is the reason for her emphases (and neglect of Canadians)?